lovedatjoker ([info]lovedatjoker) wrote,
@ 2008-10-30 19:51:00
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Current mood: contemplative
Entry tags:joker, reviews

Review #20: "Joker"
Writer: Brian Azzarello
Artist: Lee Bermejo
Inkers: Mick Gray and Lee Bermejo
Colourist: Patricia Mulvihill


Well, it is fitting that a momentous number in this journal's history (twenty reviews, whee!) should be marked by a book made significant due to all the hype and expectation and anticipation that has surrounded it. So here we go.

SPOILERS. Everything below the cuts? Be warned - I don't hold back. It's all there. You don't want to be spoiled? DON'T CLICK.

* please note that wherever I refer to "my Joker" I mean regular continuity Joker. I just can't be bothered typing out "regular continuity Joker" every single time.


A few days ago I fully accepted this was an elseworlds story and with that acceptance came a readiness to accept whatever was in it, the same as I would any elseworlds, if that is the strange future dystopia of I, Joker or the brain-boggling absurdness of Two-Faces or the groovy grittiness of Thrillkiller.
Put simply, I couldn't expect this to be a story about the character I'm so intimate with, that I love so much. It's not really him - but an interpretation of him, set outside continuity. It probably retains some characteristics or elements, but it's not MY Joker the way the Joker of Devil's Advocate is.
Likewise, this was not the Gotham I am most familiar with, or the Harley or anyone else. It's a twist on them, a new flavour. Even an experiment, if you will.
And I enjoy elseworlds stories. They're fun, because they do permit that flexibility with the characters and the environment. It's interesting to read these stories, like playing with a new box of toys.

With that approach, I could enjoy this story a lot.






Well, first of all, I'm not disappointed.

The story is very stylishly told, and paced very well too. It's not particularly long and is a very smooth read. Much like Tim Sale's art did for The Long Halloween, so too did Lee Bermejo's art accentuate the story-telling style; make it so snappy, sophisticated and intriguing. However, I should note here, Azzarello IS a better writer than Jeph Loeb.

But I'm not dazzled, either.

To be honest, I'm just… it's just a story. It's a violent story, yes, but I read From Hell a couple of weeks ago and with the violence of that fresh in my mind, this one just didn't seem to live up to the way Azzarello's been hyping it.
There's a high body count, and it's all very unpleasant and ugly, but it's also fairly ordinary gangster-movie fare without the added bonus of the complex psycho-social commentary of From Hell, which far, far outstrips this in terms of violence and gore.
I only say this because the ULTRAVIOLENCE is what everyone has been harping on about, and in all honesty? Pretty tame.
That's not to say it's * nice *, or I get a happy-funny feeling inside with the violence, it's just not as shocking as we're being told it is.

What people have been saying is true: it's just a gangster story, and the villains of the Batman mythos have been chosen to tell it. Joker just wants his territory back. It's a very typical my-cock-is-bigger-than-your-cock type of story, in which power, whether perceived or actual, is what bolsters these men, makes them feel strong, reinforces their ideas about themselves, gives them confidence. And that's all about 'owning territory' and 'having money'.
Yeah, not so much what the villains of Batman are really about, though of course theirs is often a pursuit for power too. They just do it in more unique ways.
The story itself is quite dull, in this way. I don't know if I'd go so far to say 'tedious', but just - yeah there's a feeling of having seen it before, many times.
Our narrator, Jonny Frost, a devoted henchman of Joker's, begins with aspirations to be like him but by the end realises he's in over his head and he was crazy to want that and oh god, what has he done. Ho-HUM says I. That's hardly earth-shattering.

The final climax with Batman feels stilted and anti-climactic, accompanying Jonny's realisation that the Joker, everything he represents and embodies, is something that can never die, that's been around since before Joker ever was - that it's the sickness of mankind actually. Again, hardly an earth-shattering realisation. It ties into what was said at the beginning of the book, but it all feels a bit rushed and half-formed to me as well. Like Azzarello decided he had to say something important, but didn't really decide what that WAS.
Like he just wanted to write the 'ugliest story' he ever could, with as many 'ugly' elements - drugs, violence, cruelty, rape, murder, strip bars - jammed in as possible and tried to elevate it by slapping this 'lofty' meaning on top. But it doesn't work. The plot is too messy, too shambolic, too lazy for it to work.

And my impression is that the story, this typical gangster story, was deliberately so in order to let the hardcore themes dominate. It has always seemed Azzarello feels the violence of this story makes it stand out. And that may be true - but not as a great story. Just a violent story.
Many violent stories can be tawdry and common. And this one is, at the least, common.
I have raved on and on about my dislike of shock-value taking the place of story-telling innovation and uniqueness, and this story exemplifies why. The violence and "grittiness" are intended to overshadow what is a very generic story. And NO story with the Joker should EVER be generic.
Writing a great Joker story takes a certain finesse, because while the character is ruthlessly violent, he also has great style.
But let's get into the Joker shall we…





I felt that this story took place after Joker's first incarceration in Arkham. Don't ask me why. It was as though it could take place not too much longer after The Dark Knight. Yeah, the movie I mean. This Joker reminded me of a more mature version of that Joker. Seriously. I know they swear up and down they didn't draw inspiration from the film and I'm sure the script was finished long before the film came out (well, we all know it was…) but truly, it's kinda uncanny. Maybe some sort of strange spiritual synchronicity going on there.
The Joker of this story is a gangster and a thug. He's neurotic, drug-addicted, psychotic and clearly has self-esteem issues. This comes back to the power thing I mentioned above. To me it felt clear that his hold on Gotham was very much connected to his sense of identity, because he was actually pretty damn insecure. In this way, he's extremely different to the Joker of regular continuity.
The drug thing - ahhh. It's funny. I found myself wondering how much of his insanity was drug-induced. I mean, the guy's an abuser. He's constantly high or stoned. At one point he sits in a chair for literally days, surrounded by pill bottles. When you're doping up that much, synapses start short-circuiting. So I found myself wondering if Joker had simply started life as a gangster and eventually went insane due to the drug abuse. It happens and it strikes me that this is what happened here. That all the episodes, and the paranoia and the twitching and the recklessness - his insanity was the culmination of many years of poisoning his body.

He owns a strip-joint called the 'Grin and Bare It', which made me smile. I think I may have to develop a show called that. And apparently, in his early days, he used to be a pimp. Now, I think regular continuity Joker would love to be a pimp. But not for the actual pimping. Just to wear the awesome clothes. But this Joker, in keeping with the fact he's not a 'villain' but a gangster, yes once upon a time he was a pimp. He's all about controlling the various underground business of Gotham - again, this is power to him. Very ordinary business. Very, very ordinary, all things considered. You know, illegal boxing, money laundering - gangster stuff.

He does have a few rather charming scenes and snappy lines. He's constantly making 'jokes' but they're not jokes like mu Joker makes. They're threats. And then he backs off and says 'kidding'. He's just trying to scare people, because every threat he makes - the person it's directed at knows he might do it. It's possible. He's amusing himself by frightening people.
Yes I found myself smiling, found myself seeing tiny glimpses of "my" Joker in there at times. There were some very entertaining parts. I enjoyed his constant goading of the 'Harveys'. In fact, primarily his interactions with the other major villains were the most interesting; the way he teased and tormented them.
The way he also cut a bloody swathe through Gotham's crims, killing them in various disgusting and mildly impressive ways, was reasonable. Our narrator makes mention during these panels that Joker views his work as an art. In the single-minded path he burns as he puts these crims down, he is certainly impressive. Definitely not one to be trifled with.

He's a power tripper. He messes with people. The shrimp scene for example is quite fun. The way he plays with the name 'Tommy Bang Bang', then blows him away. Looking as though he's about to hold out a hand to shake, then grabbing shrimp. Yeah, it's cheap and childish, but kinda funny to watch. A little sparkle of my Joker there.

Not so when he gives the finger to the city. Oy vey. Just so… ugh. My Joker would blow a raspberry. It's just as childish, but also subversive, cos the thing is, kids these days all try to be big and tough by giving the finger. Kids these days don't blow raspberries. But Joker would.

This Joker is a bully, and Azzarello has said that's what his take is. He's a bully who's nuts enough and ruthless enough to clamber to the top, taking out everyone else as he goes. But he's a bully who makes threats and calls them jokes and then who is frightened when he's alone, frightened and insecure. He's doing what he's doing not because he views life as a meaningless joke, but because he desperately needs to be great. He needs to be in control. He needs power.
This is mirrored in Jonny's own aspirations. Jonny sees Joker as his ticket to the big leagues, how he will make his name.
I feel that perhaps through Jonny we were meant to see the Joker as he once was. That maybe Jonny's journey was once Joker's - the upwards hike through the underworld for glory, power and respect.
And what differentiates them is Jonny can't make it there. He can't go where Joker has gone because the cost is too great.
So why then could this bullying, insecure, neurotic Joker?
Sheer will? Or lots and lots of drugs?

The 'feel my muscle' scene with Penguin is not Joker. Joker here is dependent on Croc to scare Penguin with his physical strength. My Joker? Knows how to fight - and if he can't physically overpower someone, he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeve to see him through. He does not rely on someone else like that. Except for Harley, but they work as a team, and more on her later.

And then there was other stuff. Like the rape. Yes, the rape. As I'm sure you all know, this story is told from the perspective of a devoted henchman. Joker rapes his wife. Why? Because Jonny didn't tell him about her - which left them vulnerable in dealing with Harvey. So he does it to even the score. To prove a point. It's to prove that he's top dog basically. He's the one in charge. It's the point at which Jonny realises he can never be what these people are and they don't see him in their realm either.
I have never thought Joker was above rape. He's not above anything. But rape is a common act and Mistah J doesn't like to be common. I've never thought it was his style and we know how important style is to the Joker. And this was… a very common rape. Horrendous thing to do, yes, but the reason to do it? To teach his lackey a lesson?
Well, as I keep saying, the Joker of this story is simply a gangster. His mind is fairly - unimaginative.
Rape is the domain of the vile little man who feels disempowered and is compensating. It's the way a stupid and dull mind tries to assert itself. And yeah, the Joker of this story is all about trying to get his power back.
And yeah, it's a FRIDGING. A woman devoid of almost any characterisation and personality is raped to strike at the heart of the male narrator. Well, well done, Azzarello, you get a prize for conforming to the most boring trope of misogyny in any form of media, ever. Take a bow, then go stand in line with all your colleagues. Sorry it's a bit of a long walk to the end, but there's just so goddamn many of you.
I'm not going to be precious about it, I'm not distraught by it or enraged - I'm just - to be honest, he's just reduced here. They've taken the idea of the Joker and reduced it into… into a common thug. He's made so ordinary.

And here's the rub: he really is just ordinary. Sure, he has a certain charisma and charm at times, but this depiction does not hold up against the truly great depictions of Joker. In truth it is an elseworlds twist and nothing more.

No, you wouldn't want to get on his bad side (and it wouldn't be hard to do) but I wouldn't want to get on the bad side of a twitchy teenager with a baseball bat either. Doesn't make the kid one of the truly great villains, doesn't make him blazing with creative fire and imagination, doesn't make him exceptional.

And really, if we're just going to tell a Joker story in which the Joker is a common gangster, why bother? THE Joker is exceptional.

Could he have been replaced with any other villain and no one could've told the difference?

Welll… to be honest, right now I'm not sure. But I'm inclined to say no, actually. There was something there - something that glimmered now and then - that was more Joker than anyone else. It was rare and it was brief, but it was there.





Bearing in mind this story is told through the eyes of a gangster, it is then fitting we don't find out Harley's backstory. However, my strong feeling is she is not Harleen Quinzel as we know her - his former psychologist. We don't know how he met her, how she came to fall in love with him or anything else.
She is silent, as they have said, but I now feel this was because the story was told through Jonny's eyes, and ALL of Jonny's attention is focused on Joker. He's aware of Harley as Joker's lady, but she is peripheral. He sees her as an extension of the Joker.
So, is Harley out of character? If this were an in-continuity story, I would say - yes in some ways, no in others. But this not in-continuity. It's an elseworlds. They could make her entirely different and it'd be okay. But she's not entirely different.
There is a definite element of playfulness to her, of tease and mischief. At one part, she is disguised as a gorilla in the zoo and has a huge smile on her face when she reveals herself.
Her strip scene?
It's a reverse strip scene. She starts off mostly naked and puts her clothes - no, not her clothes, her Harley Quinn costume - on. I like it. Yes I do. THAT'S Harley. Not perfectly, not all the way, but yeah, she's in there.
And she's clearly laughing after she's skinned a guy, having fun joining in with her man and playing heavy for him.
And Harley is not just his key heavy - she's practically his nursemaid. She anticipates his every desire and sees it met, even going so far as to put his sunglasses on his face at one point. Rarely are they apart and when they are it's significant - she's been sent home when he rapes Jonny's wife. He clearly doesn't want her to see that and considering she's around all the rest of the time, it's worth noting.

Harley's look is pure trashy druggie chic. I dig it in a way - it's got a cute style - but yeah there is that deviantART Nolanverse vibe running through some of them as well. The expressions Bermejo gives her lifts it though, make it far more powerful and interesting. Also, there is a certain b-grade camp movie quality to them, like she's deliberately embodying these cliches with her oversized sunnies and fluffed up do's. This is a very Harley touch, a further edge of playfulness and way of expressing that inner mischief she has.
Although it's very out of character for Harley to be silent, she manages to comunicate her personality in other ways. And it's vivid.

Harley as Joker's bodyguard is a role she plays in regularly continuity too, but here it's played up a bit more. It's subversive cos to look at her you'd really just think she's the cute girlfriend with nothing to do. She's fragile looking. Even distracted - until there's a threat, or even anticipation of. Then she's absolutely focused and ready to go. She's hardcore. She's clearly smart and a major league heavy. The fact she looks like nothing more than arm candy would just lull would be attackers into a false sense of security only to get an extremely rude shock.
As is standard with the best Harley depictions, you underestimate her. You make the mistake of thinking she's not very much at all. But she is, and Azzarello thankfully makes this clear. It's not a great depiction or a masterfully clever depiction - or maybe it would be, if only the story around it were so much better - but it's certainly good, and has subtlety.

Although Jonny barely registers her, we do. This is the deliberate dichotomy in the storytelling. Jonny may not be fully aware of how vital a role she is playing in the drama, as indicated by the fact she never speaks, but her actions and interactions with Joker make us, the reader, very aware of it.

It was much better than I expected, and it did work on that very subtle dual level.

But she too is a drug addict. She essentially spends the entire book wasted out of her mind, with lidded eyes and few expressions. It's as though the violence she enacts is the only thing that can get her blood racing, her adrenalin pumping - that's when she smiles.

Azzarello has said she has taken on the worst aspects of Joker's nature in her love for him, and yes, I can see this.

She's vigilant of her man and devoted. But I have more to say on this - shortly. Only Jonny comes close to having the same amount of trust placed in him.





It's his story, kinda, but he's not much of a character. He's very bland. Yes, we're "told" his motive - he wants to be great, he wants glory and power - but we're never given any insight as to why.
In truth he IS the disposable henchman we see so many of in these stories. He exists only for us to witness the Joker. I guess that's not really a bad thing as the story is about Joker, but because Jonny goes on a bit of a journey throughout the story (ostensibly, anyway), it would be nice to have a real connection with who he actually is as a character a little bit more. But maybe that would be distracting?
He hero-worships the Joker to the point there is some rather amusing homoeroticism between them. It got a giggle out of me.
This slavish devotion means that Joker trusts him. I also think Joker trusts him because he's a new face, a new and impressionable face keen to walk in Joker's shadow. A naïve and idealistic face.
So he trusts him more than anyone else - for a while.
Thing is, this Joker knows that Jonny is dazzled now, but things will change. He will learn. He'll toughen up, get a few hard lessons (his one with Croc was significant), realise he's not the big man he thought he was - and what then?
Joker trusts him, but he's prepared to stop trusting him in an instant. He trusts him, but he keeps a very sharp eye on him, waiting for the moment he knows will come when Jonny will either turn on him or run screaming into the night.

To be honest, I am not particularly compelled to comment on the rest of the characters. This journal is about the Joker, and to a lesser extent, Harley.
They are made "more realistic" and because this is an elseworlds, that's fine. I feel the majority of the criticism of these alternative depictions came about because people didn't realise it was an elseworlds. Once I realised that, everything became fair game. In an elseworld, you can do whatever the heck you want.
So I didn't find the alternative depictions particularly electrifying, and they're not a patch on their regular continuity (or BTAS) versions, but they allowed for moments of fun and wit with Joker.
You can see them in Nolanverse and I really do wonder if Azzarello was inspired to write this story by knowing a Nolanverse Joker would be coming out and whipping everyone into a frenzy. If he wanted to capitalise on that. Not saying he was inspired by the actual Nolanverse Joker, just that knowing there'd be one soon in the future - whenever he sat down to write this story within the last two years I guess it may have been - made writing a Joker story a good idea.

I know everyone's enamoured of this contrived sense of "realism" lately. Personally I think the only people who still truly believe drug use, swearing and half-naked women constitute gritty "realism" and "grown-upness" are teenagers. It doesn't impress me, and I find it very tedious when it's used to compensate for an actual story. If this is what "realism" is, then I'd rather go without it. Personally, I consider realism to be how compelling and how sophisticated the depiction of a character's personality, motives, urges, needs and feelings are, and not how many grams of coke he can shove up his nose.

But I'm wandering off track - what I'm saying is, the gimmicks, the silly costumes, the strange obsessions - all that weird stuff that goes into making a Batman supervillain?
I LOVE IT.
I don't want gangsters with funny code names, tattoos and gimpy legs. Ya-awwwwn.
I want SUPER VILLAINS!

But again, this is an elseworlds story, so hey, it's all fair game.

And here I just have to quote [info]zhinxy as she's once again being brilliant:

And for fuck's sake, let's point out that Batman and his villians ARE pulp characters. You can't pulp up PULP. Real pulp, printed on pulp, in the fucking FORTIES. That's what batman IS, the last pulp hero, bridging the gap between that and the superhero genre. He and his world are an odd hybrid already. Joker was gangster pulp taken to another stranger level back when that was CURRENT, for god's sakes. Not only is there nothing new here, nothing that grown-up, it's not even good pulp fiction, really.





I thought this aspect would disappoint me the most, but it is actually what I loved best about this story.
Crazy, huh?
Not that I'm complaining mind you!

There is such an intimate level of non-verbal communication going on between them in this story. They work completely in tandem, with Harley anticipating Joker's needs and he trusting her to know them. They clearly collaborate in a very personal way and above all the others, even above Jonny, she has his back.

My sense was Jonny was the guy when she wasn't around, but when she was it was only Jonny's perception that he was the key muscle. This is demonstrated in how she is depicted hovering in the background, gun at the ready, at several points. Lurking there, while Jonny plays high roller. He's too naïve to realise she's on a level he can't get to. She's the Joker's lady, but Jonny doesn't realise what that means.

Take the strip scene for example. The second Joker pegs that man, she heads to the stage. She knows from the way he's talking to that guy that he's going down. She distracts and diverts him, teases him and dazzles him so he's lulled - unaware of what's in store for him. She beckons to him and Joker leads him backstage at which point she skins him.
They walk back on, her flanking him, and share a laugh as Joker slaps a dollar on the guy's skinless butt. No words are exchanged, but none are needed - they're working together.

And Harley enjoys it as much as Joker. Very early on, Jonny tells us he doesn't enjoy the bloodshed - just the fact he's on the side doing the bloodshed.

The exchanges between them are very personal. He touches her, arm around her. They have direct eye contact, he calls her sweet. As he goes in to rob a bank, he assures he he'll be right back. She waits, gun ready. She stands close to him and flanks him at all turns. He's clearly dependent on her, and not just as muscle. Connecting with what I have said about this Joker being neurotic and paranoid, she's there for him to lean on. Not literally, you understand - this Joker is all about playing the big man around the other boys - but it's all too clear she's bolstering him up too.
Of all the characters, she remains implacable in the face of the Joker's wild freak-outs and episodes. None of his behaviour is strange to her, or even frightening. She remains cool and collected. I think he needs this. She's a rock to him, his stability.

In one scene, Joker is on his knees before her, arms wrapped around her waist, sobbing into her tummy.
She stares down at him with an impassive, still expression. Reminiscent of the Madonna of the Renaissance gazing down at her child. In this moment, she is a receptacle - in this intensely intimate and powerful moment, she is calmly accepting and taking in his misery and fear. The emotions he never reveals to the men he is determined to overpower. She is not overwhelmed by them. She is not even surprised by them. She accepts them, as part of her man, and accepts her role as his confidante in them. This creature, who it has been made clear to us, is a 'disease' - a criminal of the highest order, a remorseless psychopath - and only this woman, who we don't even see speak, can take on his unhappiness, can stand there and hold him as he cries.

That's a strong Harley.

In the next panel, we see Joker's stricken face, and her expression is now tender as she touches his hair.

We all know Joker would never cry into just anyone's stomach. Much like the rest of their interaction, this one is deliciously subtle and very significant. It's almost the best moment of the book, but it did need to be flanked by Joker's violence and insecurity to make it so.

So even if this Harley was not once his literal psychologist - she actually still is.

This moment is witnessed by Jonny - but by accident. He walks past the open door. He is visibly startled by what he sees. The emotion of this man he idolises as he allows himself to be weak with his woman.

As I have said above, this Joker is all about power. He's all about asserting himself. He won't let himself be weak. He clearly fears it. Even his drug-induced rages and paranoia involve him concertedly lashing out at those around him, determined to frighten them into submission.

But he lets himself be weak, alone, with her. Clinging to her. Clinging.

She is his strut, and I honestly don't think I'm exaggerating that. Yes, it is subtle and is skewed through Jonny's eyes, but I do feel that we, the readers, are very much meant to see this and realise it - not least because Azzarello has claimed numerous times that what he has done with Harley is different to what anyone else has done.

Finally, there is one very critical thing of note in this depiction:

Joker does not once, NOT ONCE, raise his voice, speak harshly to, berate or hit Harley.

NOT.
ONCE.

Now, I consider the abuse an integral part of the relationship. So I find the choice to exclude it to be extremely interesting and I feel it proves the points I have made above concerning the depiction of this relationship.

This Joker lashes out at everyone around him in violent and savage ways. The Joker we know often does this to Harley too. Not this Joker.
It's curious not just because it's different, but because this Joker is such a thug - a raping thug - that he seems like the kind of guy who would whale on his woman, even if she IS silent (as I anticipate there will be the argument that he probably doesn't lash out at her because she keeps her mouth shut and I won't say that idea doesn't have basis - however, I think our perception of her as silent is actually Jonny's perception of her because she's just 'the moll', never realising, as mentioned above, what a significant role she is playing in the action - demonstrated by her being planted in the zoo) - that it does give me pause she is so excepted from his fury.

So yes. They HAVE done something different with Harley and this relationship, in this way. It is worthy of note.

You all know that I am a strong believer in this relationship as mutually loving (if extremely messed up) and very complex and that I love to discuss the subtlety of it, so what I have discussed above - that she is his rock, his partner, his collaborator, the one who sees his more diverse emotions, the one he really, truly trusts - I don't think IS new. I think it's there, in BTAS canon particularly, to see once you get past the knee-jerk ABUSE response, and I have provided evidence of it here.
What IS new here is the lack of outright abuse. That's not to say the relationship isn't abusive in other ways - two drugs addicts supporting each other's addiction, after all - but the kind of manipulative, concentrated, gleefully malicious abuse? It's absent.
And with it absent, all the other elements of the relationship - she as his rock and collaborator and confidante - becomes more clear.

Again, I say, this stuff IS in the animated canon and the comics canon, but the characterisation here is really quite different and so we see it in a new light, one that makes it more obvious.

So I eat my words. If my words were a hat, I'd eat the hat too. This story actually surpassed my expectations on this score, even if it's not JokerxHarley as I love them best (because DCAU continuity always pwns all). But damn, I liked it and I appreciate it.





I'm not an artist. I just know what I like. Heh. The art in this book is striking and beautiful. Bermejo, weaselly misogynist though he may be, is not only a fabulous artist, but a wonderful storyteller.
Butcha know, Chuck Dixon is a raving homophobe - and also one of the best Joker writers ever. Le sigh.
Really, the art in this book is just stunning. Each illustration is gloriously detailed and character's expressions and individuality shine through. The story-telling is masterful as well.
However, the difference in the inkers is obvious and jars. Obviously they were striving to get this book out and it's a damn shame because it does lead to a sense of inconsistency.
I think Bermejo has real mastery with facial expressions in particular - they say a lot with no words.

Look, that's all I can say on the art because I'm just not knowledgeable enough. Over all, it's one of the best parts of the book.




But the parts I enjoyed best, that I think really stood out?

Harley's characterisation and the depiction of the JokerxHarley relationship.

I truly thought these are what I would hate most about this book, so it's fairly ironic. I was so prepared to rage. I jumped the gun and shall eat my humble pie and lick the plate clean.

But I have to say I am quite happy to have been proven wrong. In an underwhelming and ordinary story of gangsters and criminality, these two elements stuck out as being quite fresh - almost jewel-like in their quality against the blandness of everything else that transpires in this story.

I didn't hate the Joker of this story, but he wasn't my Joker either. There are elements of him I dig, moments I find him sexy and appealing, times that I laugh or shudder, and even those occasional glimpses of my Joker - but it is not one of the greatest depictions of Joker ever. It is not even Joker at his worst (which would be at his best, by all rights).

Worth it?

On the whole my reaction to it is reasonably tepid. Yet it was entertaining. There are points of interest. There are worthwhile moments.

The hype is unfortunate; it builds this book up to what it can never be and caused a misperception of it as being in continuity which is problematic on other levels (I do NOT want this realistic ethic or scarred-face Joker taking over regular continuity thankyewverymuch) - but approach it remembering firmly it is an elseworlds story and yeah. I think it's worth it.

It's NOT worth hating. Not worth being frustrated by or annoyed at. It doesn't evoke that kind of emotion, truthfully. I will read it over the years, I'm sure. Largely because of Harley and HarleyxJoker, maybe.

I don't think Azzarello "gets" the Joker in the same way Rucka doesn't. But it did bring something new to the plate and hey, it's not in continuity anyway, so it can be freely enjoyed with no conflict.

Quoting [info]zhinxy again because I think she nails it:

It's like Azzarello doesn't get Joker's soul...

I mean, he doesn't get his style, doesn't for the most part get his wit, doesn't even fully get his menace, but somehow does get his... um... heart?


Thinking about this book overnight, and I think there was some serious wasted potential in here. The trite plot, the lazy ultraviolence all worked to overshadow the few moments where Joker truly did glimmer through, where there was stuff there in the characterisation that could've made for a passionately interesting story.
His emphasis on Joker as nothing more than a swaggering bully worked against his moments of wit and insight and brilliance.
It makes these moments all the more cruel for the reader because there's the sense an amazing story is there - if only that pesky mob plot wasn't in the way.


(96 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]hexyhex
2008-10-30 10:28 am UTC (link)
I'm definitely going to have to pick up a copy! I was pretty worried about Silent!Harley, but you've sold me.

I wonder... the relationship you describe, and the interaction I see in those images, seems quite developed. Old, even. Perhaps he's grown past the violence and into tenderness? I can't imagine even this Joker starting to develop the relationship with Harley without ever losing his shit at her!

That said... perhaps your reading of his insanity stemming from drug abuse is accurate, and perhaps she's been there for all of it.

MMmmmm, Elseworlds!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lovedatjoker
2008-10-30 10:31 am UTC (link)
Maybe, indeed, it has. Maybe over time she's proven herself to be the one true rock, the one he can trust, the one he can let see his troubles, and so the violence has just ebbed away.

Heck... it WAS starting to happen at the end of BTAS too.

But yeah. I wouldn't say I was thrilled to pieces with the story, but it was more than I hoped for on these two scores.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]hexyhex, 2008-10-30 10:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 10:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hexyhex, 2008-10-30 10:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 10:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hexyhex, 2008-10-30 10:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 10:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-30 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 08:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-30 08:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-30 07:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 08:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hexyhex, 2008-10-31 12:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 01:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilant1012, 2008-10-31 01:08 pm UTC (Expand)
"joker" graphic novel - [info]bud_and_lou, 2008-12-16 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]starwriterlv
2008-10-30 10:33 am UTC (link)
I preordered the book....Its still on its way.

I enjoyed your review. I'm glad that Harley has such a big role in it.

I defintely agree with you about rape and Joker, thats at least for me why Joker didn't take rape of Gordon's daughter in The Killing Joke, it would have been ordinary...or even predictable....and thats one thing he doesn't want to be!

And I love the idea of the rasberry.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lovedatjoker
2008-10-30 10:36 am UTC (link)
I wouldn't say she has a big role - but she has a significant role.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]starwriterlv, 2008-10-30 10:39 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-30 07:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 02:09 am UTC (Expand)

[info]rocketkatze
2008-10-30 03:09 pm UTC (link)
Aw damn.

Now I want to get this. But not in any rush to get it right now.

Hmm...maybe something to put on my Christmas list? Then my mom would get to read it since she reads all my comics. So she'd have to buy it... ;p

Thanks for the review! Although the rape thing kinda surprised me... :/

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zhinxy
2008-10-30 07:16 pm UTC (link)
With Azzarello writing, I was kind of torn between bashing my head on the desk and being almost pleasantly surprised he only raped ONE person, and it was over quick enough in panel time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]thehefner
2008-10-30 04:40 pm UTC (link)
Excellently put. On the whole, yeah, it's a common story, but in the details, there are gems scattered throughout. I'm pleasantly surprised the Joker/Harley thing worked out for you! At that "strip" scene, I was thinking, "Oh fuck... I think I kind of love this part."

Also, the Harvey Dent stuff was fascinating. The sole moment that strikes me as "... huh" is his bigamy, but it makes sense as an Elseworlds: in another time, another place, Harvey and Two-Face are certainly capable of that. And that ending at the Bat-signal, with what the Joker told him, I'm still like, "Wait, what?" and then "Well, if anybody COULD kill one of them off..." For me, it's fascinatingly plausible that Harvey and Two-Face wouldn't want the other one killed off, particularly the good side toward the bad. It's tragic, and it actually makes sense.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zhinxy
2008-10-30 07:15 pm UTC (link)
"Oh fuck... I think I kind of love this part."


EXACTLY MY REACTION. heheheheheh! You found Two-Face fascinating? Hmm... I really, really did like the wrinkle of kiling one of them off, I thought the design was lovely, but for the most part I was personally underwhelmed by Harv, but when I get another reading, that might change. I trust you as as a Harveythority, after all. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]thehefner, 2008-10-30 07:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 08:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]thehefner, 2008-10-30 09:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]princessebee, 2008-10-30 09:45 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]silvercat17
2008-10-30 05:59 pm UTC (link)
I'm glad it ended up being more or less enjoyable. Maybe I'll pick it up. =^.^=

(Reply to this)


[info]alocin42
2008-10-30 07:12 pm UTC (link)
I was looking forward to reading your thoughts! They are amazingly thorough as ever.

I've had a quick whizz through a scanned version, and I kinda enjoyed it but it felt a bit like post-TDK fanfiction made into a comic. It was quite pretty to look at though, and I LOL'd very much at the awful wine-pun.

Silent!Harl was less weird than I thought she might have been. I prefer the traditional JxHQ relationship, but it was certainly a different interpretation and frankly didn't feel as outlandish as some of the more OOC Nolanverse JxHQ fics I've read..

(Reply to this)


[info]zhinxy
2008-10-30 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Love the thoughts!

Basically, yeah, still gotta read it again. But I think I've just read a MASTERPIECE OF HENCHGIRL FASHION STATEMENTS, along with a really mixed bag of mostly dull story.

With, yeah, the notable exception of the JHQ interaction being truly fascinating. It's like Azzarello doesn't get Joker's soul...

I mean, he doesn't get his style, doesn't for the most part get his wit, doesn't even fully get his menace, but somehow does get his... um... heart?

Now, LEE BERMEJO'S HARLEY QUINN PAPER DOLL BOOK? Oh, fuck yeah, that's on my all-time wish list.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]lovedatjoker
2008-10-30 08:37 pm UTC (link)
It's like Azzarello doesn't get Joker's soul...

I mean, he doesn't get his style, doesn't for the most part get his wit, doesn't even fully get his menace, but somehow does get his... um... heart?


I'm inclined to agree. As cheap, as unimaginative, as common as this Joker is, there's a part of me that's drawn to him because there's something in him that IS Mistah J... it's there, it's just... badly expressed?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]princessebee, 2008-10-30 09:46 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]zhinxy
2008-10-30 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Also, you know what, I keep reading reviews about how Batman is a "presence" in this book. You know, a dark shadow haunting Joker, part of the city blah blah blah. There because of his ABSENCE, man.

Well, yeah, he's a presence I guess. But for god's sakes, a fucking NEGLIGENT presence. Joker waltzes right the heck out of Arkham, goes on a fucking spree, and Batsy doesn't do crap until his old lawyer buddy makes a batsignal and whines to him. Okay, whatever. But if Batsy really WAS watching him through that car window, he's a frickin' accessory. I hope to god he was like in France doing something important, instead of just letting this shit go down. Or outer space. Yeah, okay. that might work. That's why joker was talking to the sky.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]lovedatjoker
2008-10-30 08:34 pm UTC (link)
Yes, Batman is singularly ineffective in this comic. It's not like Mistah J is exactly concealing his activies after all!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-30 09:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-30 09:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 09:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 08:40 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ebailey140
2008-10-30 08:33 pm UTC (link)
I've been reading reactions in other forums and... People do need to understand what an Elseworlds is. I mean, really, Crippled!Riddler in the previews should have been a clue for them... :)

I'm also reminded of that quote about the animated versions of Joker and Harley, how everyone has seen the Joker laugh, but only she's seen him cry.

I never did understand why so many Joker fans throw such fits over him having human emotions and needs, wanting him to be the Boogeyman at all times. If he was that, he couldn't really be called Batman's dark mirror, as he'd have nothing in common with Bruce. Bruce is always trying to put aside his humanity to be this vision of what he thinks he needs to be, and even has a woman that's his reflection (Selena) that makes him want to put aside the mask he wears for the world and be more human, that he can be vulnerable with.

That's been consistant in the main DCU, too, really. But, going into that in detail, what she's come to represent to him, and what she's come to represent to Bruce, for that matter, would require a whole essay, at the very least Maybe a few of them. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zhinxy
2008-10-30 08:49 pm UTC (link)
I DO see Harley as something of a reverse mirror image of Selina, ooh, thanks for reminding me of that in a way. Need to write that up! And yes, they DO have a great deal in common, it's mirror reverse, not HE DOES THINGS THAT BATMAN NO DO SO HE OPPOSITE OF HIM.

And yes to just everything you just said!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 08:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ebailey140, 2008-10-31 08:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]benicio127, 2008-11-01 10:42 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]zhinxy
2008-10-30 09:40 pm UTC (link)
The 'feel my muscle' scene with Penguin is not Joker. Joker here is dependent on Croc to scare Penguin with his physical strength. My Joker?

Oh, oh sorry, but you have NO idea HOW disappointed I was that Joker meant crocs biceps after he said "not that one," And didn't mean his, um... Joker's "muscle" if you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, stupid, but Come on, if you're gonna go for it, go for it. You had him lick that one guy before the skinning. Come ON!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lovedatjoker
2008-10-30 09:47 pm UTC (link)
TOTALLY. ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. And yes, GO FOR IT.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]racheltherabbit
2008-10-30 10:37 pm UTC (link)
I wasn't very impressed with this one. I didn't like the fact that Harley Quinn never said anything. The only part that I really did like in this one that made the purchase worth it was when the joker was crying on Harley. That is about all I can say.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lovedatjoker
2008-10-31 02:10 am UTC (link)
yeah, those panels were worth the price of admission!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]racheltherabbit, 2008-10-31 03:10 am UTC (Expand)
"JOKER?" Classless, I say.
[info]esscoh
2008-10-30 11:15 pm UTC (link)
Well. I just finished it, and you know what? I am really disappointed.

It just... wasn't the Joker. It wasn't Gotham. It certainly wasn't Batman! (I almost feel like Azzarello added that last scene in with Batman because he was partway through the script and suddenly remembered that Batman existed and thought he'd throw him in. I seriously hated B-Man's motorcycle boots. Just trashy. So un-Bruce Wayne of him.) None of the characters seemed to act like themselves at all, especially the Joker.

He hardly smiled, he wasn't funny, and he was missing all of the style and sass he usually has. He was too low-class. I think his ultimate match is Batman, so why is he even wasting his time with these cheapo thugs? I realize, yes, this is an esleworlds situation but there were so few things tying it to the canon that I could hardly even recognize the characters if I just read a script of JOKER.

I dunno, maybe I'm being a big downer, but I was really psyched for this because of the rave reviews, but now I'm just disgusted. You really highlighted it in your review- "Personally I think the only people who still truly believe drug use, swearing and half-naked women constitute gritty "realism" and "grown-upness" are teenagers. It doesn't impress me, and I find it very tedious when it's used to compensate for an actual story."

And I'm really all for this. I HATE that Joker is a drug-addict. HATE HATE HATE that. Because the main principle behind the Joker is that he's just plain crazy - not drug induced crazy. He is just regular, chemical-imbalance psychosis crazy. The Joker here is not a psychopath, he's a addict and a thug, and I really hate that. The drugs and the thug lifestyle were just distracting from the main premise of the story and the historical integrity of the character himself.

And the story? Meh. Take it or leave it. It didn't leave me thinking a lot after I finished it, like I felt after I first read "The Killing Joke." The ending? So what!? I didn't really care at all for Johnny Frost. He coulda died towards the BEGINNING of the book and I wouldn't have really cared.

Harley on the other hand. Oh, Harley. WOW awesome outfits. I loved her design as much as I HATED the portrayal of the Joker. And I find your interpretation of her silence really accurate and illuminating. I'm a major JokerxHarley fan (a relatively new one at that.. maybe about... three months of JxH love?) and I found Azzarello and Bermejo's interpretation of it pretty awesome but I'm still disappointed. It wasn't the Joker, so it really wasn't a valuable contribution to their relationship's history. I almost wish this Harley was completely WRONG so I didn't have such mixed feelings about the book as a whole and just plain HATE the whole thing with a purple passion.

I'm having such a hard time finding any redeeming qualities to this novel. The gore was just distracting. The drugs? Distracting. The rape? Sickening. Not Joker, not classy at all.

I guess that's just it. "JOKER" had no class.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say.
[info]lovedatjoker
2008-10-30 11:22 pm UTC (link)
He hardly smiled, he wasn't funny, and he was missing all of the style and sass he usually has. He was too low-class.

Agreed!

The drugs and the thug lifestyle were just distracting from the main premise of the story and the historical integrity of the character himself.

Agreed!

I found Azzarello and Bermejo's interpretation of it pretty awesome but I'm still disappointed. It wasn't the Joker, so it really wasn't a valuable contribution to their relationship's history.

Agreed!

Yeah it's a mixed bag all right. I mean, I love the JokerxHarley stuff, it's the best part of the book surprisingly enough (NO ONE is more surprised than me!) but because the Joker lacked so much in so many ways (though I maintain there are tiny moments of Mistah J!), it's not as fully awesome as it could've been. Not quite realised its potential. But... it COULD'VE, and that's heart-breaking.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and welcome to the fandom! I look forward to drawing you in deeper, mwauahahaha.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say. - [info]esscoh, 2008-10-30 11:33 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say. - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-30 11:45 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say. - [info]ebailey140, 2008-11-01 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say. - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-11-02 07:07 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say. - [info]ebailey140, 2008-11-02 08:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say. - [info]ebailey140, 2008-11-02 09:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say. - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-11-03 02:48 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "JOKER?" Classless, I say. - [info]lunauc, 2008-10-31 01:04 am UTC (Expand)

[info]frostedone
2008-10-31 12:35 am UTC (link)
I just read this story and like you I have very mixed feelings. The Joker was...well not THE Joker. He was a regular crime lord.

My favorite part was the JokerXHarley parts, especially the crying scene. The author really hit a home run on that part.

the rest of the story was bland though. The art was beautiful though.

My biggest complaint was the lack of Batman. He does absolutely nothing until the very end. Sure he was said to watch the Joker, but never stopped him from doing anything bad...at all.

That said I loved the line about the Joker being a disease to Gotham, and there being no cure, just a Batman. That was good. I also liked Batman's costume, and the talk between Batman and then Joker. Batman for a change got under the Joker's sin with his "To mock you" line.

I did dislike the characterization of the other Batman villains too.

The Riddler was nothing even remotely like his mainstream counter part. He was just a master thief. The Penguin was never referred to as Oswald too.

I liked Croc though. Especially since he was not part dinosaur looking.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
All in all, I would give this story a C.

Positives: Joker and Harleys relationship was great. So were some of the lines. Killer Croc was good. Harvey was alright. The ART. Harley being the rock as you said.

Negatives: Jokers depiction as a mere crime lord. The other villains too. Batman not being there until the end. Joker being a drug addict. (The real Joker is above that. Drugs would be for common thugs.) Joker raping that woman really left a sour taste in my mouth too. The real Joker wouldn't do that. It is below him. A common thug would rape, the Joker is anything but common. Besides it seemed like just being a Women in Refrigerator scene. She was just abused to punish Johnny like you said. The Joker was never funny either.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zhinxy
2008-10-31 01:13 am UTC (link)
The real Joker wouldn't do that. It is below him. A common thug would rape, the Joker is anything but common.

Agreed. And I've always said that I don't think he's necessarily ABOVE rape, in a MORAL sense, but he's outside of it, would consider it too common, easy and fleshy a thing. As it was, I have to say I wasn't surprised, considering who wrote this. Disappointed, left rolling my eyes, but sadly, too unsurprised to feel as sick as I probably should have.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 02:12 am UTC (Expand)

[info]lunauc
2008-10-31 01:06 am UTC (link)
Okay, I'll start off with the obvious. This is not Canon, and it's not the Joker we all know. I accept that, I'm thankful for that, and as much as this "gritty" mob war story is far too serious and trite for a character who bases his entire being on careless disregard for commonalities and expectations, I still found myself reading through it with a perverse interest in what he'd do next. Regardless of what the creators have said, I can't help but feel this elseworld was based around the future of the Nolanverse, aided not so slightly by the uncanny resemblance to Heath Ledger's Joker, and I'm not just talking about the scars. Yeah, he stops for a prop fishing rod for his meeting with an unwilling Penguin on the docks, but it's far from his usual comic-fare of poison spewing daisies and exploding whoopie cushions. Not to sound like a ham, but there's just something funny about a pie to the face, especially one made of acid. But I degress away from humorous homocide to idly note of this Joker's preference for the mundane knives, guns and molotov cocktail. Along with Croc's new more human "urban" look and a "Pimp-name-Riddlah", this book goes far to humanize the larger than life and extraordinary comicverse characters. Rather than just giving a look into their human sides, they outright make new characters loosely based on the canon. It's an interesting take, bringing shadows of the real things to mind, just not quite right.

That being said, I look at what we're offered and can't help my mind from trying to view the perspectives and seek for the subtle hints of what the story MAY have been trying to invoke. And I'll start with Jonny Jonny. As far as narrators go, I think it's all been said. He's pretty bland and uninspiring, but that seems to be about what he was meant to be, someone to be overshadowed by the big bad monster you're watching through his eyes. And it is the fact that the story comes from his perspective that I keep wondering about not what we get to see, but what we don't get to see. The story is told by Jonny, a mob thug and thus his mob psyche becomes the filter through which all data is processed. Thus, beyond the limitations of his narrow thug life view, there is obviously more going on, as is pointed out to him by Croc and Harvey in the story. But also, for us in the know, we pick up on things that he sees that he doesn't understand, or just that he doesn't care about. As was pointed out, Harley falls into this category. From Jonny's point of view, she is Joker's girl as well as just another thug. It's rather blatant how he tries to talk down to Croc, pointing out "who he works for", and of course gets put in his place. But still, the first and biggest misconception he makes is about his own rank in the gang. He feels he is the right hand of the Devil, when he's really more like a foolish court jester Joker is amused enough by not to kill for the time being. And because of this skewed perception, he misses so much.(continued in reply)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lunauc
2008-10-31 01:07 am UTC (link)
His second filtration problem is the motivations of others. The book presents Joker pretty heavily as a pill popping narcissistic power hungry fiend, and through Jonny's eyes, the killer clown becomes Scarface, with a slightly better sense of humor than Pacino.... slightly. Jonny obsesses over the territory and the money and the power, and thus projects those plain motives onto his leader, but throughout the story, Joker only keeps obsessing over one thing, Batman. Joker gets out of the Asylum and wastes no time starting trouble, big trouble and leaving his calling card all over, begging for attention, and he just keeps asking about 'him' to others throughout the story. Even the ex-cop who almost kills Joker in the alley takes on the shadowy bat visage for a symbollic moment. Through most of the story, Joker just kind of goes through the motions, waiting and practically pleading for the Bat to make an appearance, desperate for the other side of his persona almost as bad as Harvey pleads to keep his. I rather imagine that that was what he was really crying about to Harley in that rather off-character, yet hauntingly touching moment of peeping. And when it all started to fall apart, the moment he saw Harley's window smashed in, I don't know if it was some second though he was having over the reunion, or just aggrevation that Batman would sneak around the edges and only finally come to "pull the rug out from under him" when the Joker had begun to lose hope of seeing him and was caught unprepared. The plotting the planning, the drug abuse, the crying the sitting in a chair for days hopelessly waiting for something that wasn't coming, it's all about Joker's motivation, not the motivations Jonny thinks the man has. But then it comes back to the unknown of exactly why was Joker released from Arkham.

Seriously, he's the most notorious and twisted psycho spree-killer of all time. What could possess any judicial organization to release him back into the public? And why weren't there about a million protests keeping them release from ever going through? We never get an explanation of what has happened to him, or just how long he has been in Arkhman, this time around. What change has occurred in him to make doctors and judges take pity on this most fould of creatures? Why wasn't Batman ready to greet him right out of the gates and keep a constant eye on everything his arch enemy did? Why does he just seem so "broken"? I have to wonder what he feels he's lost, or how he was altered, opened up, violated, to make him seem harmless. Maybe the reason this Joker is such a low brow bully who constantly seems like he needs to prove something is because he really does feel he needs to prove something. Perhaps this is all about him trying desperately to regain his self and the respect and deserved attention of his rival, his nemesis, his counterpart, who seems to have abandoned him at the opening of this odd tale. Of course, all of this is my own twisted imaginings; a bad habit of mine to read into stories. But I just feel the need to try to understand what may make this a redeemable, if non continuity, story.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 01:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 01:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 01:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lunauc, 2008-10-31 02:58 am UTC (Expand)

[info]wllw
2008-10-31 01:52 am UTC (link)
I didn't like it.

I don't think that saying it's not canon really excuses some of the stuff. I think the problem with reimaginings is that even if they stand on their own, if they're less interesting than the original, it's going to be disappointing.

Which is not to say that it can't be fun giving a new twist to an old concept. I love a good Elseworld as much as the next fan. But "Batman villains as mob bosses" is not a good twist, or even an original twist. It's the sort of think deviantART has been about since the release of TDK. It's just the logical conclusion of the trend to make everything GRITTY and EDGY and REALISTIC (and honestly, I would not personally be particularly sad if that particular trend would just be killed dead already.)

I really think this would have been better as an original story. At least if it had been, I could just have ignored it, instead of having to care about it. The plot was bland and uninteresting, Batman as a presence didn't work (though I did kind of like the final fight scene), and the rape definitely didn't work. It all felt so gratuitous. I like violence when it serves the story, but this felt like the other way around.

It's well drawn and well written, and I can see why people would like it. There were some great parts (Harvey was interesting, and I agree with you on Harley — the strip scene was brilliant, despite my misgivings). But for me, it was all drowned by LOOK MURDER RAPE DRUGS MURDER THIS IS SO GRITTY AND REALISTIC DID I MENTION DRUGS.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]wllw
2008-10-31 01:57 am UTC (link)
And. Since I'm already a nice little ball of negativity, I might as well add that I really, really hated how the Joker was drawn.

That said, Bermejo can draw Harley anytime. Rawr.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-31 02:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 02:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-31 02:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 01:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wllw, 2008-10-31 02:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 02:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zhinxy, 2008-10-31 02:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lovedatjoker, 2008-10-31 02:17 am UTC (Expand)

[info]benicio127
2008-10-31 04:11 am UTC (link)
I loved this Harley. She is no victim, that's for sure.
The things I liked about her Harley -- her craziness (skinning a guy? Harls...), her playfulness and her unconditional love -- are all there.
I don't remember seeing her actually being sent home, but I know she wasn't there when her man raped Jonny's wife, but even if she was there, this Harley would still love her man. Which is extremely sick if you think about it.
And if she did know what happened/was there I think that could be definitely considered a form of abuse -- although not physical towards her.

I also noticed when the three of them are in the car, Jonny's just like the taxi driver. There are two instances of this -- once after meeting with the Penguin and the second after meeting with the Riddler, when she's feeding him pills.
And did you notice the Joker's lecherous look as the nearly topless Harley walks by him in the strip club? Everyone is looking elsewhere, but he's looking at her.
And at the exact moment when she bares all and he's talking about Croc -- he stops what he was saying and says "Ooh".
And I love, love her Madonna circa Like a Virgin tour updo. It kind of reminds me of her in the DCAU Holiday Knights episode. And also their bedroom is totally her. Love-shaped bed? I wonder if the bed vibrates, too, like those coin-operated ones in Niagara Falls honeymoon suites. Awesome.
And the crying scene was truly beautiful. The humanity she brings out in him -- it's more than what I pictured when Arleen Sorkin said only Harley has ever seen him cry.

And can someone please explain to me what was happening after the Bank Robbery? I get that Joker was trying to scare Jonny with the bank president's daughter's photo, but who is he saying "...Birds and bees, honey?" to and why? If it's to Harley, I would gather it's sexually implied, but if it's to Jonny, I don't get why he says it.

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[info]lovedatjoker
2008-10-31 04:30 am UTC (link)
I don't think Harley's a victim in her other incarnations. :)
Yes, she would still love her man but I think the fact she was not there was significant. Maybe she chose to leave, maybe she was sent home but she was noticeably absent.
And abuse is a cornerstone of this relationship, unpalatable though many find it.
Thing was, the rape was an act of business, as grotesque as that is. I don't think she would've taken it personally.

And really, she's always paired up with him - on an equal footing with him - even when she's backing him up. Most would dismiss her simply as the moll, but she's playing a significant role. Her image as the moll works as an advantage here and I'm sure it's deliberate on both their parts.

I did indeed notice the lechery. :)
And yes, the room... sooo Harley, though not sure about the candles. But vibrating bed would be PERFECT.

Not sure myself, but I took it to mean Joker was implying he'd molest the child... dunno, that bit threw me as well. I'd have to reread.

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(no subject) - [info]tara_la_reine, 2009-03-16 03:00 am UTC (Expand)

[info]gladrial
2008-11-01 03:41 pm UTC (link)
Would you believe I haven't been to the comic shop in about...oh...two months?! I haven't even seen this yet!

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[info]tonks07
2008-11-06 10:13 pm UTC (link)
I'm still not sure what I think about this story. I may have to pick up a hardcopy and study it myself. The art is pretty awesome at least.Especially the Joker walking out of Arkham.Loved that page since I first saw it.

I always love reading your thoughts on JokerxHarley and I was not disappointed. Despite her uncharacteristic silence you make me excited to read the whole story and pay more attention to Harley.

I have to admit Joker giving Gotham the finger made me snicker.Totally not in character for regular Joker,but the gritty,thug,Leadger-esque Joker? I can see him doing that.

Crippled Riddler made me sad.That's not the Riddler I know,but his one line about whatever being impossible to steal, so he stole it was a bit of the type of Riddler I like. and what's with the Penguin's name change?

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[info]g3rm_tr3m0r
2008-11-08 03:21 am UTC (link)
what I didnt understand was Harley's part in the story...it didnt seem as though they first met at the strip club and jonny frost...oh god jonny jonny...and that whole thing with the harvey harvey's, I mean could someone explain what that was?!?!

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[info]g3rm_tr3m0r
2008-11-08 03:23 am UTC (link)
and the pills...what was with the pills...

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[info]hollowman
2008-11-10 10:32 pm UTC (link)

I have been pondering this one, and I both don't know what to make of it or how I should go about making something of it. I can, to an extent, see some Joker in this... I could see this being a sequel to Pushback for instance, with Joker coming back to reassert himself after a savage eating from Hush, then Jason. I can see Joker pulling something like this to get back into his groove - Not because he is insecure exactly, but because he is an egoist and he would want to assert himself right off the bat as just as dangerous as ever, to people who clearly didn't understand the real danger behind his less direct antics.

But there's nothing in the comic to indicate anything requiring such a response has occurred, so it comes across as pointless thuggery - when to me, most anything Joker does should contain a point. He's into violence, but as he's said, never mindless violence. Even just "You underestimated me" could work, but even that doesn't seem to be his point, if he has any.

I'm also having some trouble working out how much this was really meant to be an elseworlds - Azzarello has created weird interpretations of characters before that seem meant to be in continuity. Why does he leave so much hanging in a one shot elseworlds piece? What's in the bag he gets from Riddler? What is this plan to kill half of two face? These seem to be pieces looking to be worked into continuity, honestly.

Of course, it's also clear he didn't much care what's going on in continuity, currently or otherwise, but is that he arrogance of an author or an actual editorial decision? It seems to me that if this is an elseworlds, it wasn't really written that way. Maybe he never cared how the finished product would be used.

I'm mostly just digesting it. But I can see the Joker in this - just the Joker at his lowest ebb, lashing out wildly until he's built the terror he expects around himself back up to acceptable levels. But then there's pieces that just can't fit, like the drugs, and a certain... lack of style? Something is definately missing, too.

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[info]deadskie13
2008-11-15 07:08 am UTC (link)
Pish. I know this won't be saying anything new, but I considered this to be what The Joker would be, if you were to severely water him down. And so while there's hints of the same flavoring, it's just not the same--just enough of a taste to make you miss the real thing.

I don't know. There are a few good bits, like the ones you've mentioned. But I don't like The Joker being just some guy--which is what he came across as. No-no-no. I want someone who is over-the-top and madcap, and larger than life. And while it was great watching the fearful expressions of Abner? and Two-Face, he still never came across as being truly terrifying.

And I find the whole rape instant to be terribly, terribly out-of-character. So much so, that all I could do was shake my head in embarrassment for the writer. The Joker is not some common criminal making idle threats and dumping bodies in trashcans--he doesn't go around screwing people because it's too pointless, really. Too easy. No challenge, no audience, no nothing.

And so the only good bits, were those with Harley--but I figure that really was a given. And in all honesty, I was surprised that they worked as well as they did.

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[info]aichou
2008-11-16 12:51 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the summary. I was going to buy this, but I'm really glad that I held off. I hated The Killing Joke, so much so that I almost thought for a while it had entirely killed any love I held for the Joker, which is quite a feat, because normally it's not easy to make me turn on a character I like. It wasn't the violence in it, or what he did...it just didn't feel like the charismatic Joker that I knew. I'm not sure why that turned me off so badly, but it did. Luckily, I gave it a week and I felt better.

From the looks of this summary, I think I would have had the same reaction to this comic. I guess maybe I have to face the fact that I don't like any comic book Joker. I love the animated series Joker, and I even liked Dark Knight's Joker. But I haven't come across a comic book Joker that I've enjoyed. In fact, now that I think about it, I haven't ever read a Batman comic that I enjoyed. Besides Mad Love, but that was based on the Animated Series. D: I wish TAS was still on. (Sorry that this comment got wildly off topic.)

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[info]bud_and_lou
2008-12-18 07:41 pm UTC (link)
i have major split feelings around this now:

for one thing you have resolved my concern that they have ruined harley and i feel better about her role in the comic now

BUT

you have also proved my other big worry- that the true depth of the characters i9s hidden by the "thugs and drugs" style of the book- will just have to wait until christmas to make my own decision

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[info]inner_ch1ld
2009-01-22 05:32 pm UTC (link)
I enjoyed this review after FINALLY buying my own copy.
And, as always, your passion is wonderful.

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[info]lolidolly
2009-01-22 07:35 pm UTC (link)
You are a really great writer! This is the first I've seen of your reviews but I really like your style and of course your opinion. I'd like to add you please.

I really enjoyed this review, I was reading it on my blackberry at first and couldn't put it down. I had to get the laptop out to get a better look and I was sucked in. Thank you!

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Dissent.
[info]glorysurrender
2009-09-12 02:55 am UTC (link)
Hello, this is my first visit to this extremely cool blog, and its the first discussion I read all the way through.

I would like to say it's an interesting discussion, because some interesting ideas have been expressed (I especially like the psychologically "broken" Joker theory) . . . but unfortunately, it's ultimately not as interesting as it could be, because not one person has stood up and said, "I thought 'Joker' was great, and you all are out of your minds!"

Well. I thought 'Joker' was great, and you all are out of your minds.

I remember enjoying the Joker's solo comic book, when I was a kid, back in the . . . Late 70s? Early 80s? It was good. What a legendary character he has been for so many decades! Nearly as long as the Batman himself! Created the same year as Robin!

Harley who?

I guess I shouldn't complain, here, on a site derived from "Harley's Haven", but . . . it's like, you all are kidding yourselves. You're reading way too much into Harley's silent appearances, and placing way too much importance on her small, small, small, small role in the story. Worse, that is the only reason some of you can even stand this amazing graphic novel!

Witness the attack of the off-duty cops, and the ensuing car crash. Jonny, Joker, and Harley are in the car -- but it's as if Harley vanishes the moment the car crashes. In the big red "CRASH" we are shown the impact's effect on Jonny and Joker -- not Joker and Harley, Joker and Jonny. Where did she go? Obviously she wasn't severely injured; is she just waiting around to see if she gets raped by a cop?

I think the ultimate comment was from the person who admitted he or she didn't like ANY Batman comics, didn't appreciate the Joker as depicted in any comic, and only liked the animated series in which HQ was created. My attitude is, that's where she was created, and that's where she belongs. Sure, she's interesting, and I'm very interested in the Gotham City Sirens comic in which she co-stars, but by no means is Harley Quinn a classic or even necessary character. Not even slightly.

One of the best graphic novels from the last few years is Sam Kieth's 'Secrets' in which -- GASP! -- The Joker has a girlfriend who --HORRORS!-- ISN'T HARLEY!!!!!!!!!1111 How can this BEEEEE?!? Well. She's a former member of the parole board who was seduced by the Joker's . . . uh, charm . . . in much the same way as Dr. Quinzel was (and, y'know, why the fuck couldn't they have just named her "Harleen Quinn" in the first place? It's a common enough last name! Why'd they have to make up this bizarre-- feh. nevermind). Anyway, the relationship depicted in 'Secrets' is not unlike what Joker and HQ have, when depicted at all, and last I checked, a LOT of Joker stories work, and work well, without ANY damn girlfriend in them. But I get ahead of myself.

Being that so many of you ?admire? or ?identify with? Harley, I suppose it makes sense that you've gone and allowed yourself the same delusion she has, which is that Joker's "charm", his dapper asexual wit and well-dressed whatever-the-fuck somehow is more important than the fact that he's a brutal, heartless, evil serial killer. He has killed thousands. He crippled Barbara Gordon and *didn't even remember* it when they met again in the Birds Of Prey comic. That is, until he *did* recognize her, and decided to send her severed head to her dad (SPOILER: He did not succeed!) You don't just want a LIKEABLE Joker (and I find Azzarello's version likeable enough), you want a CUDDLY Joker. I want you to know I cringed EVERY. SINGLE. TIME in this review when one of you referred to him as "Mistah J".

Eww.

EWW. . . .

[ TO BE CONTINUED ]

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Re: Dissent, Part II
[info]glorysurrender
2009-09-12 03:14 am UTC (link)
[ CONTINUING ]

Eww. Get it off, it burns, where's the bleach, my eyes are dirty!

(Yowtch, that stings!)

If anything, this portrayal is a much-welcome ANTIDOTE to the "loveable" Unca Joker/Mistah J. bullshit that's been allowed to permeate our consciousness over the last couple decades. This, and Nolan's TDK (and they ARE two different versions; please note that Azzarello/Bermejo's version really is white all over, and really does grow green hair), and maybe, just MAYBE Frank Miller's "All-Star" (now, really, THAT's a Joker *I* can't approve of -- "They call me The Joker, as I look pensively out at the dirty rainy city, but I'm really not very funny", and the post-sex-strangling, and the tattoo stolen from Hannibal Lecter's colleague Francis Dolarhyde from "Red Dragon".)

THE JOKER IS SUPPOSED TO SCARE YOU.

HE'D KILL YOU. YES, YOU.

AND *ESPECIALLY* YOU. HE WOULDN'T LIKE *YOU* AT ALL!

He's LOATHSOME, guys. Not to be admired. Not to be desired. He is a sick, bad man, and you all are sick, bad people for loving him so much! (Okay, okay . . . I admit, I'm winking and grinning as I say that.)

Remember the pile of disfigured corpses he'd been "practicing" on at the beginning of "The Man Who Laughs". And the way his smile never touched his hateful eyes.

Remember in "Under The Hood" when the ressurected Jason Todd found him hiding out in the abandoned amusement park -- he was just sitting there, in the absolute dark, dirty and unshaved, doing nothing, like ONLY a crazy person would.

Maybe Azzarello and Bermejo's Joker is not a suitable replacement for the canonic character (although I'd absolutely love to read more about this version!) but it's a welcome cleansing for me of all the humanization and love-to-love-to-love-to-hate-him and the harley.

I mean it. Harley Who? Taking the long view, The Joker is a towering giant in the world of Batman, and Harley Quinn is BARELY a notch above the "red shirts" from Star Trek (the Original Series). And that is how she was portrayed in this graphic novel. A "red shirt" who was also Scotty's niece, or something. I applaud Azzarello for not falling into the trap of giving her dialogue and expanding her role. I like WHAT you read into her appearances, but reading into them, you indeed are.

Finally, a word about drugs and mental illness: Having experienced "years years YEARS" of both, let me assure you of the following:

1. No amount of drug abuse can make you behave like ANY incarnation of The Joker.
2. People with mental illnesses like to use drugs.
3. I mean, most them really, REALLY like to use drugs, because . . . .
4. If anything, drugs and alcohol *soften* the edges of your (crazed) personality and slow your manic ass down, they can "normalize" you, though not in a good way, or without taking a horrible toll in the end.
5. It makes perfect sense that the Joker would ENJOY drugs, in prodigious quantities (both opioids and benzodiazepines, the most commonly-abused drugs, most likely what Joker's using, result in a MASSIVE tolerance which can only be overcome by FISTFULS of pills, or else IV injection.)
6. He'd still be a mass-murdering, ex-wife-raping, camera-spitting asshole without them.

On that I shall conclude, because I wish to stress that THE JOKER IS AN ASSHOLE.

I hope my comments will be taken in . . . reasonably good spirits. I think you're all pretty insightful, and I really loved some of the comments, but none of you are giving this book its due, and most of you are WAY too focused on the harley. I think if you concentrate on the concept of the Joker as someone you would NOT want to run into, someone who would kill YOUR family and YOUR children, someone who in a just world would have been executed long ago, you'll like this story much better. If you stop trying to get cuddly with him. That's why they made him so ugly, I'm sure. He's NOT your uncle, he's the guy who raped and murdered your uncle. He's an asshole.

I look forward to exploring this blog much further. Thanks for reading!

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